Food Network Obsessed

Eddie Muller on California, Cocktails and Contemporary Film Noir

Episode Summary

Film noir virtuoso, mixologist and writer Eddie Muller sets the stage for his lifelong passion of storytelling and cultural conversations.

Episode Notes

Film noir virtuoso, mixologist and writer Eddie Muller sets the stage for his lifelong passion of storytelling and cultural conversations. The San Francisco-born renaissance man reflects on changes the city has experienced before his eyes, from a blue collar small town to an art-inspired explosion of creativity. He reveals his and his wife’s secret to finding the perfect eatery and their favorite cocktail bar. Eddie opens up about the film that sparked his love for film noir and compelled him to explore the shadowy genre. He explains the important impact European filmmakers had on Hollywood when they emigrated to the states, defining the crucial themes and timeless qualities of the distinct genre. He covers interesting truths about the world’s eagerness for a darker, more relatable genre and how it has influenced different countries and generations. Eddie shares the significant role cocktails and lounges have in society and film, revealing a few personal stories about strangers turned close friends over drinks. The former bartender and forever mixologist opens up about his inspiration, intent and process of creating his cocktail book. He teases the self-invented and film inspired cocktails readers can find in his book along with insightful stories about their origin films’ writers, movie treatment and main characters. Then Eddie reveals his biggest pet peeve and the wrong way to order a drink. He shares his favorite recipe, go-to theater snack and best writing advice. Finally, he rates his cooking skills and unpacks his “death house meal” with delicious drink pairings.

Find episode transcripts here: https://food-network-obsessed.simplecast.com/episodes/eddie-muller-on-california-cocktails-and-contemporary-film-noir

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Episode Transcription

Jaymee Sire:

Hello, hello and welcome to Food Network Obsessed. This is the podcast where we dish on all things food with your favorite chefs, food influencers, and food network stars. I'm your host Jaymee Sire, and today we have a film noir expert and mixologist on the podcast to talk about the resurgence of cocktail culture and the correct way to order a martini. He is a writer, speaker, host of Turner Classic Movies Noir Alley, and author of a new noir inspired cocktail book. It's Eddie Muller. Eddie, welcome to the podcast. So excited to be chatting with you today.

Eddie Muller:

Well, I am excited to speak with you, Jaymee. As we go along, I think we'll find that we have quite a bit in common.

Jaymee Sire:

Yes. I think we both share a love for San Francisco, and we're gonna get into all of that. But first of all, you refer to yourself as a contemporary renaissance man. What is it about eras past that intrigue you?

Eddie Muller:

Well, I call myself a contemporary renaissance man because I do a little bit of everything, none of it exceptionally well, but a lot of different things that I've, I've gotten into over the years. But yeah, it's just interesting. I mean, I was born in the late 1950s and so I came of age in the sixties and early seventies really, and it was a totally different era, but my dad was a kind of a big wheel in San Francisco. He was a sports writer. I just had an affinity for that whole era, like looking at him and photographs from his prime and everything. It was just, there was a style there that I just really related to. And so I always, I always say I kind of had a foot in both worlds, you know? Like the summer of love, but I, but I was more interested in like, what was this town like in the forties, you know? It really looked like it was a happening place, you know? So, and, and I've always just been the kind of person in my, in my life and in my writing very much like to know how did we get here, like what happened back then that led us to this place now. So my interest in historical stuff has been, you know, that it's been sparked by that curiosity. And there you go. I mean, I, I feel like I write all my books for younger people to kind of show them this is what it used to be like. Don't, don't disregard this, there's a lot of really great stuff here. You know?

Jaymee Sire:

I mean, have you considered yourself an old soul from, from an early age?

Eddie Muller:

Well, that's kind of funny because when you're young, people call you an old soul when they think you're a little mature beyond your years, and then you get older and then you're just an old man.

Jaymee Sire:

. Well, I wasn't trying to call you an old man by any means.

Eddie Muller:

But I guess so. I mean, I, I was the youngest and all, all the people that I circulated with and hung out with when I was growing up, I was always the youngest one. So, cuz I like learning from older people, you know, and hearing their stories and all this stuff. I, I love that kind of oral tradition of passing down wisdom through, through, you know, through the eras. But I don't know if I'm really an old soul or not. I'm just a curious soul, let's put it that way.

Jaymee Sire:

Okay, that's fair. I, I'm curious, I'm curious, you know, you say you mostly hung out with, you know, older people and were, were learning from them. Was that a choice or just a situation? Like, did you seek that out or, because you were hanging out with older people all the time, you kind of found yourself in this path that, that you continue to be on?

Eddie Muller:

I had an older brother who was 14 years older than me who was, who was cool. And so he would take me places where other kids my age weren't going, you know and hung out with, he hung out with really interesting people. And so it, it sort of got to be the norm for me. And I guess I was a, I was an okay kid. I was, you know, cuz I was curious. And so whenever I was the tag along with the group of adults, they didn't seem to mind. So, so that was nice. And then, you know, my same thing with my dad. I mean, there's a gr there's a great story in my life about how I knew my dad. My, he, like I said, he was a sports writer and he specifically wrote about boxing. That was his specialty. And one time I knew him as my dad, the guy who came home from work every night and was just the gentlest, sweetest guy. And then when you turn 16 there, then it was your chance to go to the fights with dad.

Jaymee Sire:

Oh.

Eddie Muller:

And, and he was a totally different person. A totally different person.

Jaymee Sire:
How so?

Eddie Muller:
At the fights, these people all would kowtow to him. They all, they all wanted his acceptance and his seal of approval in the sports pages. So he got treated with all his deference by people who were, like, some of them were flat out gangsters, you know. And so that was really interesting to see that. And then, and he also spoke very differently in that world, as you might imagine. There were words I had not heard before that I suddenly was hearing that night at ringside. And of course when we left my dad, you know, we walk out into the, into the fog in San Francisco, my dad puts his arm around me and says, you know, you don't have to tell your mother about any of this.

Jaymee Sire:

Eddie Muller:

. Cause I don't think my mom, my mom never set foot in a, in a anything related to sports. She never went in a gym, an arena. She never went to a baseball game. She had absolutely zero interest in all of that. So it was, I, I led kind of this double life between those two worlds.

Jaymee Sire:

Yeah. And this is, as you mentioned, this is all in San Francisco. You know, you're a kid growing up in the city, a city that's also close to my heart, as we mentioned, and a very rich history.

Eddie Muller:

I remember, I remember you, Jaymee, I remember you, 

Jaymee Sire:

You remember me on the sidelines of Giants, you know, as they're, as they're making their World Series runs.

Eddie Muller:

Absolutely. You, you were a big part of that.

Jaymee Sire:

No, it was, I mean, I I look back on it with, you know, so many fond memories both for the sports scene there, the, the city itself, the food scene, obviously. What, what about San Francisco for you personally, really kind of nurtured or created your love of art and culture?

Eddie Muller:

Well, I mean, San Francisco was always a blue collar town, and then this whole arts community grew out of it, you know, in the fifties it became like the center of the beat generation. And it was always very, very welcoming to artists. There was a big artist community there. I attended the San Francisco Art Institute, which I'm sorry to say has now closed. And just the culture was just everywhere. It's such a small town. I always say San Francisco is a big city, but a small town. And, and you know exactly what I mean. Right. And, and so you'd be in one neighborhood and you'd just walk three blocks and everything has changed. And you're in a different neighborhood now. And the culture is different. And it, it was very, very exciting that way. And it was a fun town to explore growing up. I, I'm, I'm very grateful that I grew up there.

Jaymee Sire:

A and you consi continue to reside in the Bay Area. How has the city evolved over the years? Because I, I remember even how much, you know, I, I lived there for five years. It changed a lot during that time. I know it's changed a ton since I moved. Uh, what, what evolution have you seen take place?

Eddie Muller:

Well, unfortunately that small town, part of the is, is sort of gone. And it, and because of the development, the, you know, because the, it's so small. The town is, you know, 49 square miles, you know, it's, it's seven miles across

Jaymee Sire:

Seven by seven. Yeah.

Eddie Muller:

Seven by seven. And you know, the, so real estate's at a premium and the, the overdevelopment of, you know, the eastern half of the city has just led to this. You know, honestly, it's like what, what I saw 25 years ago or more now in Hong Kong, where it's just like the, the difference between the affluent people and the people who got nothing is just really, really pronounced now. And that had a lot to do with just development, real estate development and the tech industry coming in. And, you know, tech by its very nature is sort of introverted in a way. You know, people stay in their little bubbles and they do Zoom meetings and all this stuff. And that was never what San Francisco was. San Francisco was sort of life on the, you know, now when you say life on the street, you mean homeless people. But back then, life on the street was just like, I'm, I'm going out because, it's happening outside, you know? It does, I'm not staying in my room. I'm gonna get out there and mix it up with what's going on. And so that's, to me is the biggest change, honestly.

Jaymee Sire:

What do, what do you still love about the city?

Eddie Muller:

It's the city. I mean, the g it is the perfect geographical setup, you know, I mean, everywhere you turn there's a beau, something beautiful to see. It's just spectacular. You know, the water on three sides, the geography, the climate is great. It's just the mix of people and the money has changed the city considerably. I shouldn't say the mix of people. The, there's less of a mix of people now than there used to be. And so, quite honestly, Jaymee, I, you know, I live across the bay now, and I, I kind of prefer Oakland at this point to San Francisco.

Jaymee Sire:

Oakland's great.

Eddie Muller:

Oakland is fantastic, and I'm so distressed over, they're losing every sports franchise.

Jaymee Sire:

All of the teams. Oh my goodness.

Eddie Muller:

Now the a's are going now. And it's just so unfair because, you know, the difference is I walk into a bar in Oakland and within three minutes I can have struck up a conversation with somebody who does nothing related to what I do for a living. But I can learn all about it and talk to them. If I walk into a bar in San Francisco, there's no eye contact. Everybody's.

Jaymee Sire:

No one wants to talk.

Eddie Muller:

At their phone. Everybody is looking at their phone and talking to people who aren't there. Right. And that, that's, that's not for me. That the old soul in me says, I like to, I like to sit at a bar and talk to human beings, you know, and look 'em in the eye and find out what they're all about. That's, to me, that's great fun.

Jaymee Sire:

Do you think San Francisco will get back to that?

Eddie Muller:

I don't know. It may have priced itself out. Yeah. You know, I mean, you used to be able to survive as an artist in San Francisco, and you really can't anymore unless your art is tech related. Mm-hmm. , you know, if you, if you wanna be a painter or something like that, you know, forget about it. It's, you know, you can't afford to live there. But this is, you know, a natural evolution of things, I suppose.

Jaymee Sire:

I suppose. What are some of your favorite food establishments, either in San Francisco or in Oakland?

Eddie Muller:

Well, it's funny you say that because my wife and I used to joke that we lived for a while in San Francisco. We lived way out in the avenues. Like all, all the way out, like by Seal Rock. You know, near the Cliff house. And we would, because the one thing that was, I always hated about San Francisco, the, the worst thing. And you know, what's coming is you can't park the parking.

Jaymee Sire:

The parking or the hills, or you can't, you can't really walk, you know, depending on how far it is either. Unless you, you know, have your, your, your, your walking shoes on, I guess.

Eddie Muller:

Exactly. Exactly. But you know, that's what you, the city keeps you in shape, you know. But we would get in the car and just drive until we found a parking space And that's where we would eat.

Jaymee Sire:

That's hilarious.

Eddie Muller:

It could be within two blocks of this parking space is where we're going to eat. And that's testimony to how great San Francisco is as a food town is. There was always something good. Wherever you park the car, there was a restaurant that was, that was pretty good, you know, and, and because there was so much, you know, the ethnic food there, you know, you can within like, where out where we lived, it was like, eh, what do you want to eat tonight? And it wasn't like Chinese food or Mexican food, it was like, you want Russian food? Hmm. How about Hungarian food or, you know, Spanish food or it, it was just great. And that's what I've always loved about it. So I, I never really had one particular go-to place. And if you think back then, or even now, I would tell you what it was. Why, why would I do that? Because it's a, it is a place that nobody knows about and then all of a sudden you start talking about it and then you can't get it tape.

Jaymee Sire:

Well, I, yeah, I I could see that. You can't gate keep that stuff though, right?

Eddie Muller:

No. Do you, do you remember a place in San Francisco called Mama's Cooking?

Jaymee Sire:

It sounds vaguely familiar.

Eddie Muller:

It was on the mission, and it was, it was a great Mexican restaurant, you know, and we learned about Mama's Cooking and, and then we started telling everybody.

Jaymee Sire:

Then everybody else started learning about it as well.

Eddie Muller:

Could not get in. Could not get in.

Jaymee Sire:

What about favorite cocktail bars?

Eddie Muller:

There are several. Geez. Now, now you got me thinking.

Jaymee Sire:

Put you on the spot.

Eddie Muller:

Who deserves a plug?

Jaymee Sire:

Eddie Muller:

Well, I live in Alameda and there was a number of bars here, kind of, one of the tiki revival certainly happened here with a couple of friends of mine started a place called Forbidden Island. That was a nice, you know, just, it was an old divey local bar. And then it, they, these guys turned it into a destination bar. And then Martin Kate, who was one of the partners, opened up several bars in San Francisco, like Smuggler's Cove and a place called, this is a weird idea for a bar. It's a place called White Chapel, and it's ba it looks like a London subway station. And in White Chapel was the, the place where Jack the Ripper committed all of his crimes

Jaymee Sire:

Oh, wow. . I mean,

Eddie Muller:

I mean how weird is that to have like a place that that's the motif. But I guess for the noir guy, that kind of, that kind of makes sense.

Jaymee Sire:

That does make sense. Well, speaking of the noir guy, you're not just the noir guy. You're the czar of film noir. How does one get that title?

Eddie Muller:

There's, there was a woman who was the event coordinator at the Mechanics Institute Library, which is the oldest.

Jaymee Sire:

Very, very niche

Eddie Muller:

Yeah. It's very niche. It's the oldest private library in the western United States, west of the Mississippi. And it's down on Sutter Street or Bush Street or something downtown. And I was giving a talk there one night, and her name was Laura Shepherd. And she, you know, when you, when you're starting out in the business, I don't know if this is the case with you, Jaymee, but you hand in your, not your resume, like your bio, right? That you want the host to deliver for the audience. When you're starting out, that bio is like longer than, than the work that you've done that you've actually accomplished because you want to be taken seriously. Sure. So my bio was just like, I was throwing everything in there.

Jaymee Sire:

All of the things, all of the accolades.

Eddie Muller:

Then he did this, and then he did that when he was in school. He made a film and blah, blah, blah. And she got so tired of reading it. She goes, oh hell, he's just the czar of Noir.

Jaymee Sire:

.

Eddie Muller:

And that's how I got the name. She, she said it. And I said, oh my God, I am keeping that. Yeah.

Jaymee Sire:

She anointed you.

Eddie Muller:

She anointed me. And, you know, because my, my dad was into boxing, I certainly knew the value of a good nickname. Yeah. You know, Carl the truth, Williams and say, so it's like, yeah, I want to be the czar of noir.

Jaymee Sire:

I mean, that's, that's a pretty fantastic nickname for sure. Do you remember like a specific moment or film that sparked your fascination and focus with film noir.

Eddie Muller:

Yes. It was a picture from 1949 called Thieves Highway. And guess what? It was set in San Francisco.

Jaymee Sire:

Ah.

Eddie Muller:

And it, it's about a guy who re a veteran who returns from World War ii, and his father is a, a produce grower in the Central Valley. And he gets roofed by a broker in the old produce district in downtown San Francisco. And what sparked my interest, or my passion, if you wanna say that, is that none of this existed in San Francisco when I was watching the film. That whole district, you know, it was the, the, the, what did they call it? The Golden Gateway or something? It's down, just off the Embarcadero where there was a big development, the big Hyatt Hotel went in down there and all this stuff. And just beside that, near the train tracks, if you remember when there were trains that ran into San Francisco, was this produce district and seeing it in this film, and then realizing that was all there, but it's not there now. Hmm. Is exactly, that's kind of what I'm talking about. Like, I, I became fascinated with, well, what used to be there and why is it gone and what's there now and what does this say about the city and all that stuff. So Thieves Highway was definitely the one that, that sort of ignited my interest in film noir.

Jaymee Sire:

What, what distinguishes film noir from other film genres like crime dramas or, or thrillers that we see today?

Eddie Muller:

Well, most of them would be classified as, as crime dramas or thrillers or something. Back that, that's the way the exhibitors referred to them. Back in the day, the artists themselves never even called it film noir that was left for the critics and the scholars to bestow the name. But it was really a combination of a particular look that the films had very, very shadowy, very dark influenced by Europe, a lot of European filmmakers who came to the United States to get away from the Nazis in the 1930s, right? Mm-hmm. . So they're, they're most talented and creative people immigrated to the United States and made a huge impact on Hollywood. But the scripts themselves were very, very American. A lot of slang, American vernacular speech that is so clever and creative, and that's what keeps them popping for a contemporary audience. Like, wow, this is, this dialogue in this movie is great. And, and also a big part of it was they were stories in which the quote unquote bad guys were often the protagonists. Like, if it was a story about a bank robbery, they stuck with the bank robbers. You wanted to know what their story was. If it was a movie like Double Indemnity, the protagonists were the, the lovers who were plotting to kill her husband. And, and they, the story was about them, which was unheard of because, you know, in, in Hollywood, usually good triumphs over evil. And, you know, everybody lives happily ever after. But, you know, movies serve a purpose, even though their job is to entertain, they do serve a purpose in the society. And movies got America through the Great Depression. Movies got Americans on the home front through World War ii, and there were certain, you know, they were circumscribed in that you, you can't depress the audience. Well then when the war ended, all these artists wanted to do something else. You know, it's like we, we've told the uplifting stories, now we wanna show a different part of the culture and a different part of how we actually are. And that's how Film Noir developed. And just, they're massively entertaining as well. And oddly, those are the films that have kind of withstood the test of time really, really well, because it's sort of where America lost its innocence. And, and people today, I think, relate to that more easily than the Happily Ever After movie, where it's like, boy, that's corny .

Jaymee Sire:

Uh, it was making me think, because like, as you mentioned, you know, having the protagonist be quote unquote the bad guy. Do you find yourself, when you watch those movies, are you, are you rooting for the bad guy? Or are you still rooting against him even though he is like the central character? Or she?

Eddie Muller:

You empathize, but you don't sympathize. Like, I, I don't like, it's like, wow, what if that was me is a big part of film noir, because that's what art does, right? I mean, narrative storytelling allows people to experience something vicariously that they would never really do in their lives. Right? So these stories give us that window into, what if I made the worst decision of my life. Right? What if I sacrificed everything for that woman at the end of the bar and I just ended up face down in the gutter? You know, , that, that's, and there's kind of a thrill to that, you know, that you get to experience it vicariously, unless it's a heist movie, which proved to be they were immune to the production code, which said crime couldn't pay or any of that stuff, because you always root for the people who are trying to pull off the heist. I don't, I don't care. O o only a, a guy who runs a bank would sit in the movie theater and think, I hope they get caught. I hope they get caught.

Jaymee Sire:

That's so true. I wonder why that is. That we, you know, you, you root for that, that that success story in, in a heist situation.

Eddie Muller:

Be because as a viewer you are helpless. If you see, if you see disparate people banded together against impossible odds to pull off the impossible mission, in essence, it's no different than a sports story in which the underdog, you wanna see the underdog team win. You know, nobody. If it, if you know, it's the little league team versus the Yankees, you're not gonna root for the Yankees. You know.

Jaymee Sire:

How did this style you think, maybe influence or impact later film making styles and genres?

Eddie Muller:

Very much so. Because it was such an identifiable style, the use of light and shadow and, and just the whole attitude and feel of the films was very influential. Not only in the United States, but very much so in France and, and other countries who started making their own versions of these movies. And then a different generation would watch it come back from overseas, and then they'd say, oh, you know, Franco Wa Rufo does it this way. And like, well, yeah, he was influenced by the American movies clearly. But the main thing about them that made them so influential for another generation is that they're not expensive movies to make. Mm-hmm. . I mean, I always joke and I say, you can make a film noir, if you have a man, a woman, a hotel room, and a weapon of some sort, , you can, you can pretty much make a film noir. So they're not costly. So you see a lot of contemporary filmmakers or you know, that have gone on to great success started, you know, the Cohen Brothers made Blood Simple. And Christopher Nolan made a picture called Following. And, you know, Martin Scorsese Made Mean Streets was his first movie, which is, is sort of a film, Noah. And it just, it, it makes perfect sense that you do this when you're young because the films influence you and it's not expensive to, to make them.

Jaymee Sire:

What, what role do like bars and cocktails play in this very specific genre,

Eddie Muller:

now, now we get downstairs, , it's the, an immensely significant place because that's where the bar or the nightclub is, where legitimate society mixes with the underworld. Mm. And that always happens in these stories. So you always, you always learn that the guy who runs the club, who ha who wields political power because of his social connections and everything, like he used to be a bootlegger mm-hmm. or he was a criminal or something. And that's where you go to pedal influence and get things done and all. And of course, you know, there's the, the beautiful woman is, is the Torch singer in the club, and then she figures in the plot. And so, yes, nightclubs are a big, big part of it. And also because these were movies made in the mid 20th century, socializing after Dark was the major thing that people did, right? Mm-hmm. , I mean, there were just nightclubs and bars everywhere because you didn't stay home and stream movies about them on tv, , you actually went out and did this stuff in public. So yes, they play a significant role.

Jaymee Sire:

You, you did not go to college, but according to your website, have quote compensated by always hanging around smarter people and effortless feet typically accomplished in bars. So I'm curious if you have, you know, a great story or a memorable conversation that you've struck up at a bar that has really stuck with you to this day.

Eddie Muller:

Innumerable, I'm sure

Jaymee Sire:

There's a lot, right?

Eddie Muller:

Innumerable ones. I mean, some of them are really great because I've made lifelong friends in bars, you know, because I, the key, as you may have gathered, Jaymee, the key here is that I am not afraid to talk.

Jaymee Sire:

It’s an important skill.

Eddie Muller:

Exactly. So, you know, when I go into a bar, if, if somebody is giving off and which can get you into trouble, as well, bars are this wonderful place where strangers are suddenly friends if only for an hour, right? Yeah. And once you start getting convivial, and once, as I like to say, the liquor loosens the screws at the back of the tongue. I'm quoting the Clash now . But that then people just talk and they feel like they can, you know, express themselves because they're not being judged and they, you know, a lot of mistakes get made in bars, but, uh, like I say, a lot of, a lot of friendships and a lot of stuff that you wouldn't discuss elsewhere, you can talk about in a bar and for the very reasons you said, because it, it feels very clandestine. It feels safe. Safe. And it's your choice as to whether you ever want to go in there again, and see any of those people again.

Jaymee Sire:

Eddie gives us a scoop on his new cocktail book and the resurgence of cocktail culture up next. Well, your Affinity for bars noir and writing have coalesced into your first cookbook, which was released this week. So congratulations.

Eddie Muller:

Thank you, thank you very much.

Jaymee Sire:

Eddie Muller's noir bar cocktails inspired by the world of film noir. What inspired you to, to put this book together?

Eddie Muller:

Well, it, it felt like a natural thing. I mean, I've, I was a bartender at one point in my life, and then I've continued to have an interest in mixology, if you wanna call it that. And it just was a natural. And the publisher Running Press works very closely with Turner Classic movies doing, you know, imprints of movie related books. And I had done a book called Dark City, the Lost World of Film Noir that was very successful with Running Press. And they said, what do you wanna do for a follow up? And my editor there, a lovely woman named Cindy Sippa, she also does a lot of cocktail books and things and said, would you consider doing a cocktail book? And it was like, oh, don't you know, you don't have to twist my arm, . Yeah, let's, let's do that. And I'm just so grateful that they went all out. I mean, it's, it's very deluxe and, you know, not overly expensive, but the, the design of the book and everything, it's ex it's exactly the book I wanted to do, which is a wonderful thing to say because you hear from so many people, like, it wasn't quite what I'd hoped it would be. But this is.

Jaymee Sire:

So how many of the, the recipes in the book are, are your creation or are they more like classic cocktails that are just pairing with certain movies?

Eddie Muller:

It's a combination of both of those things. Mm-hmm. in some, in, I, I would say probably, I think it's maybe 10, 10 or 12 of the cocktails are my own creation. Some totally from scratch, like nothing like this existed before, which is kind of dicey to say in the cocktail world because everything is sort of derivative of.

Jaymee Sire:

Everything's been done.

Eddie Muller:

Yeah. Martini, Manhattan, old-Fashioned Negron, those are like the four cocktails that everything is somehow derived from those four. But I just felt like there were 10 or 12 that are my creation. But then sometimes there's a cocktail mentioned in the movie. Hmm. And you know, people who watch my show in Noir Alley on tcm, they, they'll see people drinking in the film and they'll, they'll I'll see on social media because a lot of people tweet during the movie, which is wonderful because I, it's like a live, you know, realtime focus group. , but I'm also, but I'm also one of these guys that's so old school. I'm like, stop tweeting, watch the movie. Watch it.

Jaymee Sire:

Yeah. afterwards.

Eddie Muller:

It's like the modern of talking during the film.

Jaymee Sire:

That's so true.

Eddie Muller:

So, but then I noticed that they all say, I haven't seen this one before, so I won't be tweeting as much, which is good. Hmm. But they all say, I wonder what's in that cocktail. Like, you know, in a, in the blue Gardenia, this movie from 1953 and Baxter drinks Polynesian Pearl Divers. So I knew immediately I was gonna put, cuz it's a real drink. Yeah. So I'm gonna put that, that recipe in the book. Or Ray Melan drinks a bunch of stingers in the big clock in 1948 and it's like, I'm sure a lot of people don't know what a stinger is. 

Jaymee Sire:

What is a stinger tell us?

Eddie Muller:

it's brandy and creme dein. It's okay. Something you probably wouldn't wanna drink, Jaymee?

Jaymee Sire:

No, I definitely don't .

Eddie Muller:

But, but for the, for the folks who are curious now they know. Yeah. A as I say, use the smallest glass in your collection for this drink , because you won't be drinking a lot of it . So anyway, that, that's how, and then just matching them. Like sometimes I was inspired, like I want to do a cocktail in honor of Barbara Stanwick. And so I, I found the appropriate cocktail, the Brooklyn, because she was from Brooklyn and just there was a lot of, uh, taste testing , like, I'm gonna.

Jaymee Sire:

Somebody has to do it.

Eddie Muller:

I'm gonna drink this. And like, does this feel like Barbara Stanwick would drink this? And yes. Okay. That passed the test. 

Jaymee Sire:

What, what do you think is responsible for kind of this resurgence of cocktail culture that I feel like we've been seeing over the last, you know, five or 10 years where you have, you know, you have like just cocktail focused bars, you know, cocktails that cost $20 because of everything that goes into it. What, what is the, you know, where, where can you point to like why that is happening?

Eddie Muller:

I think it, it probably is because of what we were talking about just a moment ago about cocktail lounges being safe places. And I think that people who really like that experience of being, you know, one thing I don't do is I, and this is weird given how much of a sports fan I am, I don't like to go to cocktail lounges that have televisions. I don't, I don't like that's fair to go to to lounges with big screen TVs and stuff that are really noisy because I prefer to go to one where you can hear people talk. And, and I think that that's a big part of those, those bars that you are talking about where it's really kind of upscale and the place is really designed, you know, I think that those are a haven for people of a certain, have a certain attitude and appreciate going out for a night on the town is not your sneakers and your cutoffs and a t-shirt. It's like, I'm, I'm going to dress and I'm gonna go out where other people are dressed this way as well and act like my great-grandfather.

Jaymee Sire:

. No, I mean, there's something to be said for, you know, get getting a little dressed up and, and having a destination in mind and, and something that that makes you feel like you're out for the night, you know, instead of just grabbing a drink, I guess is, is probably the difference. Right?

Eddie Muller:

Correct. And I mean, I've always, you know, I have a, a public image now because of the show and I, people always expect me to be in a suit and a tie and, and sometimes people say to me, you know, what are you so dressed up for? You know, what's with the, what's with the costume? Which really irritates me. But I always say, well, I thought I might be meeting you today. Aw. Because it's like, it, uh, to me, getting dressed to go out is just a show of respect to the other people that you're meeting during the course of the day. It really doesn't have anything to do with me. Trust me, I can, I can dress down with the best of them, but I still believe in that kind of social interaction where you dress if you're going out in public, you know?

Jaymee Sire:

It's that it's that old soul that we talked about earlier. Yeah.

Eddie Muller:

There you, there you go. There you go.

Jaymee Sire:

Uh, for people that watch your show and love your show but aren't necessarily drinkers, will they still get something out of this cookbook?

Eddie Muller:

Absolutely. That, that was a big part of the strategy because I am aware that not everybody enjoys a cocktail. So I made sure that the stories that accompanied each cocktail were sufficiently interesting and entertaining that you'd get something out of the book even if you're not going to make the cocktail. So it's what's kind of interesting is whereas they are the centerpiece, it's not strictly a recipe book. You know, I mean the recipes take up a very small portion, I mean, of the page. So when I talk about the big sleep and I pair it with a cocktail, most of the pages dedicated to the big sleep are about the big sleep. Or, or why I chose this cocktail because you learn something about the writer of the book and how he treated all this and his story. And so all of that weaves its way through the book and, and makes it worthwhile for people even if they're not going to make the cocktail.

Jaymee Sire:

What's your favorite pairing from the book?

Eddie Muller:

Oh gosh. Well the one I'm, there's a cocktail that I created. This is, I'll tell you this, this is kind of a talk about inside baseball . There's a cocktail I created when I made it. It was called The Lady from Shanghai. Okay. Which is a Orson Wells movie from 1948 that starred his wife. Then Rita Hayworth and I, I knew that I wanted to make a cocktail and tribute to this movie. And from scratch I like equated each ingredient with a character in the film. Wow. And I, you know, so like Irish whiskey for Orson Wells, cuz he plays an Irishman and the Scheister lawyer would drink Brandy and Rita Hayworth would be represented by this very exotic laure, green Charr and a ginger laure. And then, because it's the whole film is such a head trip, I said, well, it has to have an absinthe.

Jaymee Sire:

I was gonna say, is there absinthe in there?

Eddie Muller:

There, there's absinthe rinse in the glass with a lemon twist and it's really, really good. It's the cocktail I'm proudest of that I created for the book, but I couldn't, in the end, I couldn't call it a lady from Shanghai because the designer of the book Paul Keel, the way it, it fell, it would've said Lady from Shanghai would've been the head twice on the same page. Ah. And so he said, that doesn't look good. It offends my design sensibilities. You have to rename the cocktail. And I said, well, let's just rename the movie cuz I really . No. So it's now a sailor beware. Okay. That's, that's the title of the cocktail. And my big hope, Jaymee, my big hope is that somehow this catches on cuz nothing would please me more than like walking into a bar somewhere in New York and seeing a sailor beware on the menu.

Jaymee Sire:

That would be really cool.

Eddie Muller:

That would, that would mark my arrival.

Jaymee Sire:

Yeah, no, I agree. I, I mean, I have a sandwich at Ike's in, in San Francisco, so Exactly.

Eddie Muller:

Yes. Yes.

Jaymee Sire:

Very like, oh, I, you know, I made it , I have a sandwich.

Eddie Muller:

I, I noted that and I said, yep. That's what, that's what I want to have. Yeah. I wanna have myself on a cocktail menu.

Jaymee Sire:

Well, I hope, I hope that dream comes true for you and we so look forward to checking out the book and it's been such a delight talking to you. We are gonna finish off with a little rapid fire round, and then we have one final question for you that we ask everybody here on the podcast.

Eddie Muller:

Okay. Let's do it.

Jaymee Sire:

All right. Your personal favorite cocktail.

Eddie Muller:

Martini.

Jaymee Sire:

An iconic film noir movie everyone should watch.

Eddie Muller:

Out of the past.

Jaymee Sire:

All right. One cocktail everyone should know how to make.

Eddie Muller:

Well, I would say a martini. 

Jaymee Sire:

I was gonna say.

Eddie Muller:

But I'm go, I'll, I'll, I'll switch it up and say A Manhattan. Everybody needs to know how to make a Manhattan.

Jaymee Sire:

Okay. Best writing advice you ever received.

Eddie Muller:

Don't be afraid to be obvious. That was a, that was for writing fiction because I wrote around the point, and a, a very great writer named Bill Barich read my manuscript and said, you gotta get over the fear of being obvious.

Jaymee Sire:

That's a good one. I like that. Proper way to order a martini.

Eddie Muller:

Okay. I can tell you the improper way is, is to request a martini and then say you don't want vermouth. Because then suck it up and order a glass of Gin cause that is.

Jaymee Sire:

It’s not a martini.

Eddie Muller:

You're either drinking gin or vodka. And if that's what you're drinking, just come on man up. Just, just say, gimme a glass of vodka. You know, it has vermouth in it.

Jaymee Sire:

All right. Has vermouth. Rate your own cooking skills on a scale of one to 10?

Eddie Muller:

Oh boy, for my purposes, I, I'm gonna say seven. I'm gonna give myself a seven. 

Jaymee Sire:

That's, that's a respectable

 

Eddie Muller:
I could be better, but I I'm a good cook. 

Jaymee Sire:

You hold your own. All right. Favorite movie theater snack?

Eddie Muller:

Oh, because I'm such a conscientious movie goer.

Jaymee Sire:

Okay.

Eddie Muller:

It's Junior Mints.

Jaymee Sire:

Junior Mints. Interesting. What, what?

Eddie Muller:

Because they don't make noise.

Jaymee Sire:

They don't make noise. Okay. That's right.

Eddie Muller:

I mean, they, they shake in the box and you don't want to be a rattling those around, but when you're eating them, it's not like you're, no, I mean, of course I always have popcorn, but, but you, you know, that's because you have to, well, you have just in your MIT that's required is like a little additional thing. Thing that's a little extra, but they make no noise when you eat them.

Jaymee Sire:

Okay. I, I can't do chocolate and mint together. So that's, that, that one's out for me, but, but I respect, I respect your, your reasoning behind it for sure.

Eddie Muller:

Chip ice cream for you too?

Jaymee Sire:

No, I can't do it. I can't do it. I think it takes like toothpaste and chocolate .

Eddie Muller:

Well, yeah.

Jaymee Sire:

You're like, yes, it does. All right, last question. This is not rapid fire, so you can take as long as you want on this one. What would be on the menu for your perfect food day? Breakfast, lunch, dinner, dessert? Obviously you can throw in some cocktails as well. There's no rules. You can time travel, spend as much money as you want, you know, super sonic jets, whate, whatever needs to happen for you to.

Eddie Muller:

You're going to be amazed. You're going to be amazed at how simple this answer is.

Jaymee Sire:

Okay. That's fine. I mean, it's so interesting cuz some people have like an elaborate, you know, like, I'm going to Japan for breakfast and then France for lunch and all this, and then other people are like, Nope, this is, this is my perfect day. And it's, it's all in one place. So whatever you wanna do.

Eddie Muller:

Okay. And it's funny that you, I I was, I knew you were gonna do this. And so I was very enthused because I, I normally do this to other people. But when I do an interview, because I'm the noir guy, I frame this whole thing as, it's your death house meal.

Jaymee Sire:

Oh, Yes. Yes.

Eddie Muller:

Your last meal I have for your last meal before they take you take the long walk through . And so I have thought about this. Okay. And I, I ha I have really great answers from other people as well. That, so here's the deal for breakfast, I am having what in France they call Ooof canta, which is melted cheese with a fried egg on top of it and a warm baguette. Mm. That's what I'm having for breakfast with a cup of coffee. For lunch, you'll notice that you're gonna be cholesterol counting pretty soon.

Jaymee Sire:

Oh no no. That doesn't count either. So.

Eddie Muller:

Good. . So for lunch, more bread. And then I'm going to have an heirloom tomato sandwich.

Jaymee Sire:

Hmm. Okay.

Eddie Muller:

Just a really perfect heirloom tomato with yes. Mayonnaise. On, on the bread, salt and pepper. That is it. That is the only thing on that sandwich. And I'm gonna have a glass of red wine with that.

Jaymee Sire:

Lovely.

Eddie Muller:

And then for dinner, I am going to have at least two martinis , two martinis, a Caesar salad and a dozen oysters.

Jaymee Sire:

Oh my goodness. I love that .

Eddie Muller:

That, that's my dinner. And yeah, in fact, I, you have made me really, really hungry now, and I think.

Jaymee Sire:

So you’re gonna have to have that for dinner tonight

Eddie Muller:

Yeah. I think my day's agenda is now set. .

Jaymee Sire:

And are you a dessert guy? Are you having dessert or no?

Eddie Muller:

I'm not really a dessert guy. I have to say. I mean, I'll, I, I find that I eat dessert to keep everything going. It's like, you don't wanna leave the restaurant, so that's why you have dessert. Right? It's a little something to share. And I usually do a shared dessert or something, but it's not something I look forward to, you know?

Jaymee Sire:

Okay. How do you take your, your, your martini, by the way.

Eddie Muller:

Okay. My martini, this recipe is in the book. I learned, I learned this from the, the Spanish film director, Luis Manuel. He didn't teach it to me. He put the recipe in his memoir. And what you do is you get very, very dry ice in the mixing glass, you know, fresh out of the freezer with no moisture on it. And you pour like a half ounce of vermouth over the ice, swirl it around, and then pour the vermouth out. So the vermouth sticks to the ice cubes. 

Jaymee Sire:

Okay.

Eddie Muller:

And then you put your gin in your three ounces of gin. Stir that around. And I take my martini with a twist, not an olive. Okay. And I find that, that just having the vermouth rinse, not in the glass, but on the ice is perfection.

Jaymee Sire:

Okay. I love that little tip. Are you, is it a, is it a lemon twist or a grapefruit?

Eddie Muller:

No, it's a lemon twist. Okay. Lemon twist. Okay. A little, a little tip for you, Jaymee. Twists are always lemon.

Jaymee Sire:

They're always lemon. Okay.

Eddie Muller:

They’re always lemon. So I'm very suspicious when I go into a bar and I say, we're a twist, and they go lemon or lime. Ah. Because I wanna say there's good luck trying to get a twist out of that lime. They don't really work that way.

Jaymee Sire:

That's true. But you can, so what would it be called if it, if it is grapefruit? Because I have a friend who's, uh, mixologist.

Eddie Muller:

It is a twist, but you, you have to specify you to specify like, like an orange or a grapefruit.

Jaymee Sire:

You know, twist. Okay.

Eddie Muller:

Peel or something, you know.

Jaymee Sire:

Yeah.

Eddie Muller:

But if you just say twist, it's lemon.

Jaymee Sire:

Okay. Well I just learned something new, so thank you.

Eddie Muller:

I’m glad I could be of service.

Jaymee Sire:

And thank you so much for taking the time. This was such a fabulous conversation and best of luck with the new book.

Eddie Muller:

Thank you so much, Jaymee. It was really a pleasure to do this. And like I say, we're not seeing your face, but I'm happy to see your face again because it was so fun having you out here in the Bay Area back then. So, good luck. Good luck with everything yourself.

Jaymee Sire:

Thank you so much. I I miss it a lot. Need to get back soon. Thank you. Eddie's new book, Eddie Muller's Noir Bar Cocktails inspired by the world of film noir is out now and available wherever books are sold. Make sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss a thing. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review. We love it when you do that. That's all for now. We'll catch you foodies next Friday.